Jamie: [00:00:00] Yeah, and just in general what life costs, because I feel like a lot of kids graduate from high school, graduate from college where they've not paid their own bills before.
You know, they've not paid for their cell phone or their car insurance, or their car payment, or maybe even gas, and so they might not actually know how expensive their life is. Hmm.
Alec: Jamie, I was at Nordstrom a couple of weeks ago and I'm standing at the register returning something and there were three people standing there cuz it was a slow day at the store.
And one of them says, turns to the other and says, well, I don't know. I, I've never really paid my own bills before, so I wouldn't know. And I just said, I'm, I said, I'm sorry, I don't want to barge in on your conversation. They were all clearly in their twenties. It's like, Yeah, like, and I just happened to help teach parents about money, you know?
Hello and welcome to Cents of Responsibility. I'm Alec Lindenauer, a certified financial planning professional, husband and chief allowance officer [00:01:00] to two daughters. I'm also the creator of the Cents of Responsibility tools and how to instruction parents need to raise their children into financially literate, money savvy adults, even if they don't know much about finance themselves.
Julie: I'm Julie Frans, a chef, entrepreneur at heart, wife and mother of two middle school children. I also curate the Cents of Responsibility community, so parents have a forum to ask questions, share success stories, and discuss their journeys. As a financial newbie myself, I'm also cultivating our group support system to help carve out my own family's path toward financial literacy.
Alec: All right, so Julie, welcome back. For those of you who are avid listeners and you know that anything gets better when you just sprinkle a little bit of Julie on it, doesn't matter if it's Eggplant Parmesan or a podcast. So Julie is back. And Julie..
Julie: Thank you.
Alec: I am about, I'm about to introduce you to our guest today, Jamie Bosse.
But [00:02:00] before I do, I just wanna read you something very quickly from her book that I'm gonna tell you about. This says, as parents, we must step out of our helicopters and let kids fail. By letting them fail, they learn to get back up and try again instead of giving up and whining for help. It's the same with financial concepts.
We want kids to experience pain and make mistakes when the stakes are lower. So when I heard her talking about that on this Instagram Live, I was watching a while back. I was like, this is someone I have to reach out to. And I did. And that's how I, I met Jamie. So went about to introduce
you.
Julie: Yeah. How many times have we said that same thing?
You and I? It's like it's speaking our language.
Alec: That's right.
Exactly. Feel the pain. So Jamie is a fellow certified financial planning practitioner, and she and I actually have similar tenure in the financial planning industry. But Julie, this one is an author, like I said, so this book, money Boss Mom, helping parents be the boss of their financial future.[00:03:00]
Very cool. Aside from that, she has a children's book series, Milton, the Money Savvy Pup, so there's two of those and as I understand it, more are coming. But Julie, she's a mother of four, which means she's gonna show us her cape because we know she's a superhero. Jamie, welcome. Meet Julie.
Jamie: Hi, guys.
Julie: Very nice to meet you.
Jamie: ..You too.
Alec: Alright, so Jamie, my goodness, let's start. Where do you find the time? Let's just start there. Let's talk about your cape.
Jamie: Oh man. Yes. Capes are always required for sure. I always feel like with work and life and and author stuff, it's all kind of mixed together and it's all just finding some harmony.
Not necessarily balance, but like making it work together. Right? So for me, I do a lot of calendar blocking if I'm trying to accomplish something, like writing a book or blocking time for Instagram posts and those sort of things. So I kind of live and die by the calendar blocks that tell me kind of where I need to be and when, [00:04:00] and I even block off, you know, travel time if I know I have to pick up kids for practice or if I know I have to cook dinner sooner because of whatever we have going the night before.
So it's really just kind of a, a matter of blocking time where I can.
Alec: That's remarkable. All right. We're gonna have to listen to your podcast on that, cuz I think we all need some help with that. For sure. Let's talk about your motivation for all of this, because what what's your why? I mean children's books your, you have your financial advisory practice, adult books, where's all this coming from?
It's amazing.
Jamie: Thank you. Well, I think it all originated when I was in college, so I went to college thinking I would be an elementary school teacher actually, and when I was sophomore in college, my parents filed for bankruptcy. And that just set off a whole host of questions for me. Like, why did this happen?
What does this mean? Are they going to jail? Do I have to like drop outta school and move home and raise my siblings?
Alec: That's scary.
Jamie: Like, [00:05:00] what, what does this mean for me? And so I ended up taking a personal finance 101 class just for me. Like selfish reasons completely just so I could learn about, you know, basics.
Cuz I knew that I probably did not get a solid basis in that and I didn't want the same fate as my parents. So I ended up taking the class, which would led to another class. And then I ended up completely changing my major to financial planning and graduated with that degree. Cause I realized what a cool way to help people and improve their lives.
Alec: Wow. So that's the mission. If you put it at its core, that's, it's just helping people improving their lives.
Jamie: Mm-hmm. That's where it started. Yeah. I would say if I can, if something I've taught you or an experience I've had with you or, um, you know, something we've done together can improve your life in some way.
I think that is what we're here for.
Alec: And why books specifically? How come you're, you're focusing on that end.
Jamie: I think because strength [00:06:00] is, um, one of my strengths is, is writing, and I've been writing since I was a little kid. I used to write stories while my grandma watched, uh, the Young and the Restless and I was bored.
And I would write these sitcoms and these different fun stories. And so I've always used writing in every job that I've had to help communicate different concepts to employees or, um, just help other people learn or something that I learned. You know, I would wanna write it down as a way to communicate.
And so the Money Boss Mom book, I had actually written a lot of blogs towards the young kind of parent audience on financial topics, from insurance to cashflow management, budgeting, those sort of things. And so the Money Bossman book actually started as a compilation of those blogs that I'd written over the years.
Alec: Hmm. Well, I love the writing style. It's super down to earth, relatable, lots of hip hop references, I mean, all kinds of good stuff in there. So chapter 11 is really where we're gonna focus today, which is [00:07:00] teaching kids about money when it's invisible. So, What do you mean by that? And then let's dig in.
Jamie: Yeah, so when I was a kid, I either had money in my pocket or I didn't, and that dictated whether I could spend money that day.
And then as I got older, I had a checkbook to manage. It was physical. You wrote it down, you really had a feeling for the money that you had. But now I feel like money is completely intangible. You know, a lot of times kids are seeing their parents, you know, use a card to pay for things at Target, or they're punching things on their phone and, and money magically appears, or things magically appear on the doorstep, or they transfer money via Venmo.
So kids aren't seeing that tangible money and it's, I think it's a little bit harder to learn.
We talk a lot about that, right, Julie? With the Apple Pay and the debit cards and everything. So Julie has two kids, a spender and a, let's say a spender and an more well-rounded. That's right. John doesn't fit into it.
Julie: Are you [00:08:00] gonna use that word?
Alec: Okay. You tell me. All right. Let me rephrase that. I have a spender and then one who's a bit more well-rounded on all four. Julie, tell us about Cassidy and John, because I really want Jamie to tell us about four. I mean, how does, how does that happen?
Like what? What is goes on there?
Julie: I don't know how to classify John very.. honestly, I mean, he is definitely a spender, but it's more in that like immediate, I need a sandwich, now I'm starving. Put money on my card or I'm going to die. You know, it's like he's a 14 year old boy that's just in the moment all the time, and when he needs it, he needs it, but he doesn't wanna sit down long enough to like have the money conversation and really get into it.
But Cassidy really looks at her bank account. Probably on the daily, and she is a spender, but she's like really strategic about money and spending and, and just a lot more proactive. So I don't know if you could like use one word to describe each of them. They're just, they're very, very different in all aspects of their character and life. So [00:09:00] money's just another adventure that we have to customize on each, you know, personality type. Yeah.
Alec: So, Jamie, take us into your kitchen. What's, what does your dining room table look like when you start talking about money and allowance and whatever it may be?
Jamie: Okay, well, let me tell you about the demographics.
So mine are all 10 and under, so the oldest is 10, and then I have an eight year old, and then I have five year old twins. So they're all kind of on different wavelengths in terms of money in general. But what I've found so far is my oldest one, he's actually kind of evolved from being a really big spender to wanting to be more strategic about what he buys, and actually is a lot more planful with how he spends his money now.
Which has been so cool to see. So he's got several hundred dollars now saved up and he doesn't know exactly what he's saving for, but he's thinking bigger now. Instead of just, oh, I wanna buy this toy or this thing, he's thinking like, well, what if we've used this to go to Great Wolf Lodge? [00:10:00] Or you know, he's thinking about experiences and trips and stuff.
Which I think is really exciting.
Alec: Very cool.
Jamie: But my, my second one, he is, we will go shopping to spend their money and he will just be throwing stuff in the car, like, let's get this and this and this and this. And I'm like, well, hold on. Like, how, how much money did you bring? What is your plan to spend today?
And and he'll be like, Ugh, let me count it again. I forgot. And then he'll, we'll look at the prices again. And we're like, well, maybe we should. You know, narrow it down to one or two things that you want to buy today. And you can either get this one big thing or maybe some smaller things. And he is just like, oh gosh, can't you just buy the rest of it?
Like, let's just, we need all of these things like, oh boy. So that one, we have our work cut out for us, and then my younger two are five and they never wanna spend their money. They have been getting allowance for a little couple years now, and they are always, they're really possessive of it. They're like, these are our bucks.
Like [00:11:00] this is my bucks. I don't wanna spend these. So in the money is cool and important stage, but I don't wanna get rid of it.
Alec: So did you start them all together? I mean, couldn't have been, right? You've probably been working with the 10 year old since, since they're five or like how did that go when you first started?
Jamie: Yeah, good question. So with him, we didn't really start till he was about five or six, and that was when I actually got the idea to write the first Milton book. It was because of a shopping experience with him where he said, You know, he really wanted this giant remote control grave digger truck thing, and I said, that's not in our spending plan today.
And he said, we'll just buy it on Amazon then. And I was like, oh no. My kid has no idea that like buying stuff on Amazon is still buying things and it's a financial transaction that is taking place.
Alec: Right? That goes back to the whole invisible thing.
Jamie: Yeah! Yeah. And I was like, well, I've, I've failed. So, [00:12:00] um, so I, that's when I really started researching what can kids understand at different age groups, you know, what can I start teaching him and what books are already out there on this topic?
So I found a few, there's not, there's not a ton in that space. There's, it's more and more every year that I'm finding. But I was like, well, maybe I can write something based on what I've learned for this age group of concepts that they can understand. And so that's where Milton the Money Savvy Pup was born.
Alec: And so at five then, so did you start allowance, do you pay for chores? I mean, how did that actually, what did it look like at your table? Because you didn't have the book and then mm-hmm. You were looking for books, but what did it look like and take us in your kitchen?
Jamie: Yep. So we started with, um, pay for chores.
So we started to do, okay, like, here's your five chores to do. If you do all five, you get $5 this week. So we started kind of tracking that, you know how old his children are? They were, they're, he was all over it. He was like, okay. Check this off the list. I love it. Kay. I'll do that chore. I'll get a dollar.
This is great. And so we [00:13:00] started with the kind of just traditional Dave Ramsey type methods and now it's kind of evolved cuz we've kind of thought about, okay, what chores do we want to pay for, if any, you know, cuz the big thing is we want them to have the money to learn from Right. To experience that pain, to make those decisions, to feel what it's like to manage the money.
So we've kind of evolved from like, okay, like these chores are just, you live here, this is what you do, right? And you know, if you want to do extra chores, if you wanna come up with the idea for them. We really love that if they come up with a new idea for chores to be paid for, like have them present it to us and then we can say how much we would pay for such an activity. But then, you know, once my second son started doing a lot of the chores too, it became a lot harder to manage with the chore chart cuz he wasn't as motivated to really. He didn't really care. You know, he's like, oh, well maybe I'll do one chore and get $1, [00:14:00] eh, that's fine. Um..
Alec: Now that sounds, sounds like John, right?
Sure. That sounds like John.
Julie: Oh, totally. It's, it actually sounds like Cassidy too. And I think that was one of the reasons I never went that route cuz I could see them being like, mm, I don't feel like doing it. So chores are not optional here. When I tell you it needs to be done, it needs to be done. And maybe I'll give you a choice on which one you do, but like, You're doing it, you know, and so we, we always kept those two things very, very separate.
Jamie: Yep. Yep. And I'm really excited for when they can work outside of the home. You know, I wanna see like this summer, if they have some ideas of maybe jobs they could do in the neighborhood or things like that. Cause I think working for someone else is an even better way to do it, right? Because then you understand like, okay, I am accountable to this person.
I have a job to do. You know, it's just like a different experience than being paid from your parents. Yeah.
Julie: Well, we ran into trouble with, Cassidy was, she is an entrepreneur, born entrepreneur, and she had started this beading business a couple years ago. And [00:15:00] so she would be, you know, well she watched TV and it was really fun for her and then she'd go out and sell it and sometimes she would make $300 in like an hour selling her beads.
Jamie: Wow.
Julie: And so then now she's since given up her bead business, she actually just sold all of her beads, every bit of everything for $150. Yeah. So she's sold her business. So that was good practice. But the thing is she's now operating in like, Big numbers. And so for her to go and walk a dog for $5, it's like, eh, not worth my time.
I don't need the $5. She thinks in, in too big of numbers, and she's only 12, you know? And so she knows what things cost. She knows, you know, she has to make a decision of does she get her nails done or does she buy a new pair of shoes? And, and all of those are big numbers too. We're no longer talking in the fives and tens.
And at 12. You should be walking a dog for $5, like you should be, you know, also doing those chores and jobs and stuff. So I think she's got this like [00:16:00] CEO mentality where she's like, you know, I work in big numbers, I delegate, I'm just gonna get a team and they're gonna do all those little things. And I suppose, you know, we'll see where that goes.
And it's kind of exciting, but it's also like frustrating as a mom where you're like, come on, just fold the laundry for me for $5. Nope. Not worth it. So..
Jamie: I love it. I like her attitude.
Alec: It sounds like she needs some twin five year olds around so she can delegate.
Julie: She does, yeah. She would do good with that.
But then there's John that really will like run an errand for me for a mere $2 and 50 cents because he knows he needs that $2 and 50 cents, you know, for frozen yogurt tomorrow when he is out with his friends. So they operate in very different numbers and mindsets.
Alec: Everybody describes their kids. Oh, my kids are so opposite.
But then when you have a third or a fourth, you understand that opposite-er is a word. And then for the fourth, the opposite-er-er is a word. So they're all So Jamie, how, right, so how is that then evolved? So [00:17:00] from, from the 10 to the eight, and now your chore chart was getting a little messy, and now you have the two five year olds.
Now what does your chore chart look like? Are you, have you scrapped it completely or 80%? And where does allowance fit in now?
Jamie: Yeah, it's still on the fridge. It's still this big dry erase thing on the fridge, the chore chart. But we don't, uh, use it as often anymore. So right now it's like, kinda like the big kids are on salary in a way.
Right. They're not like hourly workers anymore, but they just know like they get up, they need to unload the dishwasher the big kids do every morning cuz we run the dishwasher every single day cuz. Maybe twice a day. Cuz we're, of course that's how we roll. Right? Um, and they, and then just, they know, um, they need to take the, we have a compost thing that needs to go out and so one kid checks that every morning to see if that needs to go out.
And then we do the recycling. We have a little recycle bin in our kitchen, and then we take it to the garage bin. So that's all their just morning stuff that they need to take care of [00:18:00] before they can do anything fun.
Julie: Can I just stop you right there and say, that is all amazing. Like, if I can get my kids out the door, both of them at the time they need to go, I'm like, I won, we did it, you know, without me screaming at John like, Get outta, you know, where it takes so long.
So if you can actually have them also get things done in the morning, like, girl, that's it. You're living.
Jamie: It took a while to like back into it though. Like it hasn't always been that way. It was like, okay, what do we wanna have done when, and then when do we need to wake up to like accomplish these things?
And so it's been a. Of working backward. A process Yeah. Situation. Mm-hmm. But it is really great when, you know, the 10 year old, he, if he gets all the stuff done, he eats his breakfast, you know, brushes his teeth, gets the dishwasher unloaded, the recycle's taken out. He can watch TV before we leave for school.
And so he's like on it.
Julie: Yeah, those motivators different for each kid too. Like one might be interested in that and another one might be like, [00:19:00] I want money.
Jamie: Yeah. Eight year old, he's, he is just eating his breakfast, chilling out. Like, I don't care.
Alec: So what is their salary for the older kids? What do they get versus what can they earn?
Jamie: So they, uh, their base salary is about $5 a week. And then I think I need to increase it though for my 10 year old here soon to kind of. It raised with inflation. Um, and then the little kids get $3 a week depending on the chores that they do. And with them, we do pay them like right after they do something for the little kids.
Just so it's kind of like, okay, you did the job, here's the money. So it concretes that lesson. But for the bigger kids, it's kind of a, a Sunday payday situation.
Alec: So every Sunday, so aside from writing all these books and aside doing all this, you also find the time to sit down with all of them and do all their payday every week.
Jamie: Well, it's not, uh, it's not an event. It's really just like, okay, here. Go put it in your jars or your wallets, [00:20:00]
Alec: so you are human. Okay. Thank God. Yeah. Okay.
Jamie: Yeah. Ok.
Julie: Ok, good. Alec wants you to sit down for an hour with each one every Sunday and talk about those $5. And
Jamie: yes, hand write the w2. Here's your tax form.
Alec: Yeah, monthly. Monthly would be good enough, but yeah. Wow. I was good to say that. That would be, you really are a time-blocker.
Jamie: And they remind us like if we don't do it, You know, if it's like noon on Sunday and it hasn't happened yet, they're like, um, so it's payday, right? So they don't let us forget it.
Alec: That's the mark of consistency, right?
They know that.. That's to expect it. That's amazing. And then so what do they do with it? So payday and, you know, do you have the, the four slotted piggy bank, the three slotted piggy bank, the jars, the accounts? I mean, what do they all do with their money?
Jamie: Yep. Right now the, they all have jars, so the give, save spend jars, and the target is to have them, like when they get paid, like $5 for instance, [00:21:00] one to give two to save the rest, to spend, and then this, you know, the savings jar is really not, They're not saving up for something super long term, just something bigger than normal.
But the, but we do let them kind of decide, okay, are you gonna take some of your gift jar to church this weekend? Or, you know, when you are, if we're going to the fair or something and they wanna play all the games, you know, like we let them decide like how much they're bringing from the spin jar and then we let them buy all the stupid stuff they wanna buy with their money at Target or whatever.
So that they, yeah. So that they make the mistake and hopefully learn from it. Right? So our, our big thing is just following up after the purchase, like a week or so later to say like, oh, you know, where is that thing you bought? Um, you know, are you still enjoying it? Are you happy that you bought that thing instead of saving your money for something else?
And I think that is the bigger piece of it, cuz it's always hard to watch them just [00:22:00] throw money away if you know. You're gonna like throw those Pokemon cards in the recycle bin next week, but, well, I do think you have to let them make the decision and make the choice and, and feel the consequence of that.
Alec: Absolutely. My wife is an artist, which means money is, you know, very ethereal. It is. It was not quite, quite, uh, part of her realm. So she's just kinda like on board with whatever money. Conversation What topic? Hey, you know, honey, I'm thinking we should do this, Julie. Sounds good. You know, it's just a thumbs up we're, it's involved and it's a group conversation, but it's really just me saying, Hey, I'm thinking this.
And she's like, I like it. And then she's out. And Julie is still a financial newbie in the grand sense. But you're driving this in, in your house still? Correct.
Julie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Robbie supports it, but same kind of thing. It's like, sure, yep.
Alec: Thumbs up.
Julie: Whatever. Yeah. He was raised in a family where you get paid for chores and he, you know, he often [00:23:00] laments that we don't like get John up at six in the morning on a Saturday to go rake leaves and blow driveways and shovel snow and stuff like that.
But like we don't. We just don't have those kinds of chores at our house, and we don't have family members like with big properties. So, you know, he, he has an idea of the way it should be, but it's just, we're just not set up that way. So I think he's happy that there's some kind of like structure and reward system and learning process here, but it's very, very different than the way that he, I think, would ideally like to see it based on his own upbringing.
But, It is what it is. He's supportive. And I think, you know, I think we've both seen the progression of the kids and their understanding of money and like their appreciation of what we spend for them and, and just even their acknowledgement of like, oh, you know, well if we're budgeting, like is that something we wanna spend as a family?
And like their just understanding has really evolved. And I think just seeing the progression of that is enough to hi, you know, for him to continue just. [00:24:00] Letting me run the show, but being very supportive about
it.
Alec: I would say same here actually. It's a pretty good description of Ashley too. Jamie, how does it work in your house?
Jamie: Yeah, similar in that I'm kind of the main driver and instigator of all the things, but my husband definitely supports it and is, you know, wants them to be really accountable human beings, which is fun. Um, So I usually am the one that's kind of making sure we have the cash for payday and, you know, organizing the trips to spend your money and, and things like that.
Alec: What about investing? So you have the three buckets, but the fourth bucket of investing that we often talk about is, is really a highlight of the elementary starter course that we offer and promote and, and love and all of that, but. Are you planning to introduce investments at some point? I know. Well, that's a loaded question.
I know you're planning to introduce investment at some point eventually, right? So what's that plan? How does that look?
Jamie: Yes, I love it. I, I [00:25:00] definitely wanna introduce investing at some point, and I'm just not quite sure what that looks like yet. I could see if the kids start doing, you know, chores for other people where they're getting paid, where we set up Roth IRAs and kind of use that as a, a l a learning point.
But I love the idea of. You know, talking with kids about, you know, picking in stocks that they support and trying to do some investments where they can actually see how money can grow, you know, when you're
Alec: sleeping, right? The way we introduce it in the elementary starter, and I think, you know, at five, at eight, at 10, I think this all works great, is the fourth bucket we introduced.
I put some seed capital in it, so I put $10 in it, and so when we sit down, we do it monthly instead of weekly, as does Julie. But anything that's in there, we give them 10%. So that's 10% monthly. So they're like, oh wow. And they get to see as they put more, as they allocate into that, as that grows, they get more and more.
Because goal number one was just get them excited about compounding interest so they could see how this [00:26:00] money is growing, even though I'm sleeping. And then as that grew to a certain amount, that's when I said, okay, great, now let's take this and now let's go ahead and, and open an account. That's how we introduced that to get them excited.
Jamie: I love it. So we're using it within their big account and then just adding the funds to it or what?
Alec: This started kindergarten and third grade, and it started with, uh, the, we call it the Bloody Knuckles, or Julie named it the Bloody Knuckles Money Savvy Pig, because that's definitely once you start getting bills in there.
But then we graduated to individual buckets and then now beyond that as they now got into middle school and high school. That's when we said, okay, now let's put this in an account for you.
Julie: As you know, my kids are totally opposite and so we ha we have to handle even that particular thing very differently for either kid.
John wanted to see the stocks working, so he had, I wanna say $400 or something, and so we put it into stockpile, which has been awesome cuz he was able to just. Decide exactly how much he wanted. It was like $50 here, $50 there. He picked the [00:27:00] stocks, we watched them for a while. He got really upset with a couple of them.
We shifted, but he loves checking it on his phone, which is really cool cuz he tells me on the daily, like, and I tell him, don't check it on the daily, but he likes to. And he'll be like, they're up by 3%, they're down. This one's going crazy. You know? And so that's like really fun for him. Cassidy likes getting that extra 10%, you know, in her allowance each day or each month with the cash.
And I keep saying, you know, you're, you're up to about, I think she's up to almost 300 and I'm tired of giving that much cash. You know, her allowance is like 52 a month and then I'm giving her 30 more. On top of that. It's like, this is getting really hard. And but, and I keep saying maybe we should take at least some of it and start putting it into stockpile.
And she's like, Nope, I see John's money. It keeps going down. I like getting the extra cash in my allowance. And I'm like, oh crap. Now what? So, you know, we have two like very different models and I eventually, I'm just gonna have to [00:28:00] stop and Alec, I know you're gonna say, well, you can like reduce it to 5%, which I'm gonna have to do now that we're over 300.
At the same time, like $80 in a month for her allowance. If she's gonna spend it on like a pair of converse, well, I would be spending the money anyways. On her pair of shoes, but it's like now kind of going into this learning moment. So I'm okay with the money that we're, you know, teaching the lesson of investing and letting her make the budgeting decisions.
But I just had to throw that out there because a, again, it goes into like each kid, what works for them, how they're gonna learn. I can see John really getting into investing. I think he's learned that it's not a great time in the economy right now. And he keeps asking like, when's it gonna go up, mom? Like big, you know?
Um, but I can see that, you know, he's got a real interest in it.
Jamie: Yeah. But I love that they're both learning the concept of, you know, you invest the money and it can grow for you. If you don't spend it, here's what could happen. [00:29:00] Mm-hmm.
Alec: Right. It's that experience. Even Cassie's getting that experience just by watching John, I mean, it's not her own dollars, but it's her brother's dollars.
So there is an experience factor there. And even that $400 that John. Grew. I mean, he grew that, that was all from the investment bucket that he put in the seed capital and, and watched it grow.
Julie: Yeah. Cassidy has some money in stockpile too, but she couldn't be bothered to even look at it. So I check it and we check it, you know, monthly, but she would never think to like, look it up on her phone the way John does.
Um, she just likes to count the money in the box, you know?
Yeah.
Alec: So, Jamie, what's been the evolution for you as a money teaching parent in the five years?
Jamie: Yeah, well, I think it's all kind of a learning curve, right? Because it's, you know, you start with like, okay, I just wanna get some money concepts solidified.
I want them to, you know, understand how to earn money and, and what that means. And then now it's really getting into the decision making [00:30:00] side of things, right? Like we want them to actually. Make decisions and evaluate like, oh, let's look at the cost. Let's decide like, do I want this or do I want this? And is this something that I value?
Am I just spending the money just to spend it, or is it something that's gonna improve my life? So I think it's kind of evolved from just. A financial transaction to like a value conversation, which I'm really excited to see how it goes, and I'm really excited for the kind of middle school, high school range where we do something.
What it sounds like you're doing, Julie, where the kids really, you take kind of the money you would normally spend on 'em, and that's what they're. You know, spending on themselves mm-hmm. To try to figure out how to allocate the dollars and see how they manage that.
Julie: Yeah. It's, um, now there's like a pretty good understanding of what I'll pay for and what I expect them to pay for.
And even, you know, as explaining with John and his food, he's. Always out with friends now, and like if we're out as a family or we don't have food in the [00:31:00] fridge and I need to feed him, I'll pay for it. But if he's just out gallivanting with his friends, he knows that's his money. You know? Or if Cassidy wants her nails done, that's not something I value.
I'm not paying for it. She's 12, she can pay for it. Candy, junk food, sugar, cereals. Even there like, I want Lucky Charms. Okay. Fine. I'll take you your money. Oh no, I didn't want it that bad. You know, and it's, um, it's really, I think that's the most important thing as they get more independent and growing up to where they are out on their own all the time, they really do start to develop an understanding of like, what's worth it.
You know, am I going to, like, John will go to the local ramen place, or even like a sushi place with his friend, and I'm like, I hope that was worth it. You just blew, you know, 25 bucks on a sushi roll. Mm-hmm. And I think, like for him, it's like about the experience. He likes to go and like, you know, have that, I don't know, independent experience.
But they have an understanding about it versus me, like, you know, [00:32:00] handing $25, go spend it however you want. It's like they always are weighing it out independently. Now, not always having to ask me for. My opinion or can they do this or can they spend that? It's been good and a lot of conversations come up that are more sophisticated now where we don't have to like start at the drawing board.
We've been having these conversations regularly for two years and they're, you know, they're more sophisticated now. So the conversations like Alec and I have been having about splitting checks or going on a date, how do you manage the expectations of like dinner with friends or dinner with a girl in this.
Instance with John this weekend.
Alec: Don't let John listen to this.
Julie: I know. We'll have a whole podcast on that eventually. Um, or like when friends owe you money, you know, it's like, Now they're at the age where their friends make bets with them or their friends borrow money or their friends borrow something and lose it and we need to get paid back.
And how do you have those conversations? So just having them [00:33:00] have like a very basic understanding of the value of a dollar has really led into, you know, those more complicated topics that can be really uncomfortable if you don't know the basics.
Jamie: Yeah, and just in general what life costs, because I feel like a lot of kids graduate from high school, graduate from college where they've not paid their own bills before.
You know, they've not paid for their cell phone or their car insurance, or their car payment, or maybe even gas, and so they might not actually know how expensive their life is. Hmm.
Alec: Jamie, I was at Nordstrom a couple of weeks ago and I'm standing at the register returning something and there were three people standing there cuz it was a slow day at the store.
And one of them says, turns to the other and says, well, I don't know. I, I've never really paid my own bills before, so I wouldn't know. And I just said, I'm, I said, I'm sorry, I don't want to barge in on your conversation. They were all clearly in their twenties. It's like, Yeah, like, and I just happened to help teach parents about money, you know?
How do they teach their [00:34:00] kids about money? Uh, um, as, and I'm just curious, you know, I heard you say that. Is that true? Like, You've never actually paid a bill before. I said, no, I just moved here from Maryland and, and I'm on my own and you know, I'm in my twenties. But no, I, they never asked me that. And I looked at the other one and said, and same thing for you.
And he said, yeah, yeah, same thing for me. It was like, it was a big awakening. And I turned to the third. I said, same for you. He said, well, I don't know. I'm 23. I still live at home. It's like, uh oh.
Julie: Oh geez.
Jamie: Yeah. Wow.
Alec: This is the state of the world?
Julie: Maybe they should be on the podcast next Alec. Like, what not to do.
You know
Alec: what not to do.
Jamie: Yeah. Cause I, I. I could see where it happens, right? Where as you're a parent and you have their cell phone on your cell phone plan, the insurance is just automatically paid through, you know, your automatic bill pay and where it's just automated so you don't think about it maybe to like let them see it or let them pay it or, or whatever.
You know, I wanna keep that in mind as they get older that how do we make sure that they know what these [00:35:00] bills cost and that they need to be responsible for them.
Now do your kids have phones or your, does your 10 year old.
No, none of 'em do. They have tablets, but not phones yet. However
Alec: long you can keep it that way, keep it up.
But, but that is the phone is how I introduced a bill for the first time with, with my oldest. And it was okay. We went to the, to the store and she picked her phone. I said, here's what I'm willing to pay. Anything else is over on. You talked about Apple Pay and said, if you break it, you know you're in for it.
I said, this is Apple Care. It costs $10. So now every. Every allowance, every court day, that first Sunday of the month, she has to pay me that $10 for Apple Care. So I was like, okay, you're now paying your bills. And then when I, that thing happened at Nordstrom, I came home and I said, see, this is why you pay your Apple Care bill.
Jamie: I love that.
Julie: Cassidy said something so funny yesterday. Well, we, we battle on um, screen time all the time cuz I'm very limited with her like app screen time. But I'm also, you know, very limited on the budgets and a lot [00:36:00] of her friends get. Endless amounts of money and endless amounts of screen time, you know?
And so she was hovering over my desk yesterday and I'm like, what do you want? She goes, I just want more money and more screen time, you know? And I said, well, you can. I said, do you ever tell your friends that it's just cuz your mom loves you so much like I work really hard to give you this learning opportunity and budget, you know, all time and money and everything.
It's like, I wish you didn't love me so much. I was like, ok, fair enough. Sorry. Because it's hard, like as a, you know, it's hard to fight them all the time on these. Budgets, whether you're talking about screen time or money or whatever it is, it's like, yes, your friends get this and this and this, and they have a comment on everything, and I get it.
I, I understand that's hard. That's life, you know, and it really is hard for me to also manage, but it's worth it in the long run. It's, it's worth the time and the energy and. The battle sometimes. So there'll be a, [00:37:00] there'll be a reward, like you said, Alec, where you're like, see, I told you.
Jamie: Yeah. They will not be at Nordstrom's.
Talking about never being able to pay a bill before.
Alec: No, exactly. I gotta tell her that one. All right. So Jamie, let, let me tell you a little bit, a little story because I have a stumper. I love to give parents workable, concrete solutions, but I am. Stumped. I am stumped on this one. And it just so happens that Julie was there also, and I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened.
So Julie used to be my next door neighbor. Unfortunately for us, she moved to California, but I get it. So she happened to be back for a visit and Julie was in our dining room and we're all talking and everything. And my oldest, who's now in ninth grade, comes in from her very, I'd say maybe her second real dinner with friends.
And it was this sort of, High price sushi place, you know, a little trendy. And we live in Miami Beach, so you know, they, they have those. And it turned [00:38:00] out that she actually, she wasn't very hungry and she ordered just a little something, but some of the other kids who were taking out their parents' credit cards were ordering the.
Artistic looking. I mean, these were pieces of art. I don't even know if they would qualify as a sushi role. Right. And so they come with a high price tag. So the bill comes and there's the five of them, however many girls. And she wound up getting super billed, I call it, where she had to pay. Uh, one of the kids was like, okay, well, you know, let's all split it, you know, just evenly there's, there's five of us.
And so she wound up paying. Something like 55, $60, which is a lot of money for her, not so much for one or two of the other kids where she really only ate about $15 worth of food. And she came home and Julie and I were sitting there and my wife was there and she's like, well, what do I do? We talked about it a little bit and we, some had some ideas, and the next night we go, I go to dinner and it comes up with my, we had three different parental units, like grandparents were, were there and each one of them had a different opinion on how [00:39:00] to handle it.
So, Since I'm stumped, Julie, stumped, what would you do? What would you tell my daughter?
Jamie: Oh, man. Well, I would say maybe have her have the conversation before they go out to dinner next time. Right? Like just set the stage before they go to things like this and say, You know, okay, we're all going to dinner together and maybe say it at the beginning, like we're all gonna have five separate checks and make sure that's clear with the waiter right when they get there.
And then that way it kind of sets the expectation that whatever you order is what you're gonna pay for.
Julie: It's hard though, you know, with, with like just social constructs, cuz you don't wanna be that kid that's like the poor, poor kid. The cheap kid. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. It really goes into that conversation, like Alex said, like, you know, I'm paying for this myself.
I know you guys are all paying for it with your parents' credit card, so because it's my money, I need to put it on, you know, a separate bill and, and like being able to articulate that without being the [00:40:00] complainer or the the weirdo that doesn't wanna pay. But I think, yeah, having that conversation ahead of time and knowing the right words to use instead of sounding like the. The drag of the group. We had that situation last weekend with John and going out on the date with a girl, first date covering, you know, how are you gonna talk about it ahead of time? Like when you order, you know, are you gonna split it? Are you gonna get separate bills? Don't wait till the bill comes to all of a sudden say, you know, I'm paying or I'm not paying, or whatever.
And they worked it out. He paid for lunch, he paid for ice cream.
Alec: Yeah. That pre-conversation is the key. It's even like with our, with our toddlers, right? It was when they were even so little. It's like, okay, we're gonna go here. Here's what you can expect In 10 minutes, this is gonna happen, and then in five minutes.
So there's that pre-conversation is, is always the key with, with kids.
Jamie: Yeah. But I get that social pressure, right? You don't wanna be the, the odd one out that is causing the issue. Yeah,
Julie: it's hard.
Alec: [00:41:00] So that's one of those teenager issues, uh, to look forward to. What, what other worries might you have, or what worries do you have for your kids Jamie with regards to money?
Jamie: Well, I think, you know, as, as they're growing up, I think a lot of the social pressure comes in different forms, right? Like, well, I need to participate in this thing or go to this concert, and are they spending money because it's something that they wanna do, or is it because. They think they're supposed to do it or everyone else is doing it.
So just kind of that old school pressure of being your own person and spending money in ways that matter to you, not to someone else is something I think about.
Alec: You mentioned before, well, what happens if they don't really learn? I know you see a lot of that in your financial advisory practice, so. What have you seen what happens to the kids that don't learn this stuff?
Jamie: Yeah, so I've seen a lot of successful clients. I've been in the financial industry for 19 years now, and I've seen a lot of retirees who are still paying like more than half of the support. Financially for their grown kids, and a lot of times they're in [00:42:00] their forties or fifties, and so they're not only like still paying for those kids, but also then raising the grandkids in a way too, right?
They're like paying for their cars. They're wow, buying them groceries and those sort of things, and it's just a vicious cycle where they can't truly enjoy their retirement years like they thought they were going to. Because they're, you know, maybe the kids have moved in with them again. Right, right. Kids and grandkids or they know like, oh gosh, well I have two more grandkids that I'm gonna have to buy a car for, so we're gonna skip the international vacation this year.
You know, it's, it's just really sad to see when these kids have never had the accountability or, you know, figured out how to be independent and, and manage their own finances and just stayed on the payroll.
Alec: It's scary. All right. What percentage of people would you say that you come across that you deal with that feel a level of comfort in talking about this stuff and handling their finances?
Jamie: Uh, in just money conversations in general or [00:43:00] with their kids?
Alec: Yeah, in general.
Jamie: In general. I feel like a lot of people have, uh, their different kind of money scripts is kind of a formal term for it, but there's probably about 20% that really have a money avoider. Type money script where they, they either think money's kind of bad and we shouldn't talk about it, or I shouldn't be as worried about it as I am.
And I think that really inhibits people's ability to live a healthy lifestyle, right? Because if you inherently think that money is bad, you know, you're either trying to give it away or not make as much, or, you know, sabotage yourself, which is, which is really hard to see.
Alec: Yeah. Julie, so Jamie and I have another thing in common, which is we both got our first credit card the same way.
Which is on our college campus.
Julie: The college. Yep. I know that story.
Alec: Yep. Stepping outside and saying, oh yeah, this looks neat. I want that T for me. It was a T-shirt with my college logo. For you, it was also a T-shirt. Right.
Jamie: It was also a T-shirt that just said College on it. So it was just a plain shirt that said College on, and I was [00:44:00] like, absolutely.
Sign me up.
Alec: And And how did that go?
Julie: So special. So special.
Jamie: Oh man. So I ended up having three credit cards before I was 19 years old because I signed up for that first one outside the student union to get that free t-shirt. Uh, which isn't free by the way in the long run. But, um, but
Alec: then I ended up what was expensive t-shirt ever.
Jamie: Correct. Yes. So I ended up signing up for two more for a fundraiser, for a fraternity, like a friend that was in a fraternity. They were like, oh, we just need people to sign up for these credit cards, and then we get all this money for our, like our trip together. Smart. Oh my goodness. I'm like, oh, great.
Yeah. That's so easy. Let's do that. So, so I have three credit cards before I'm 19 years old. Um, I didn't use 'em for at first, but then, you know, it's so easy to start going down that path of like, oh yeah, I, I don't, I can't afford that. Oh wait, I have this credit card though that I could just charge it on and I'll work this weekend and [00:45:00] I'll, I'll pay it off.
Right? So you kinda, it's so easy to go down that rabbit hole, especially in college where. You're not making a ton of money. Like I worked through college, but you know, you don't have a, a lot of, of discretionary income. Right. And so it's easy to be like, oh gosh, well spring break trip. Yeah, let's, let's go on that.
I wanna go this time I thankfully didn't have too much credit card debt by the time my parents' bankruptcy happened. And I was like, wait, okay, how did this happen? Um, but, but I did have some to work through cuz you know, you just forget. You're just like, oh. Yeah, I, I'll just charge this now and I'll pay it off later.
And then other life stuff comes up and, and the debt kind of just messes up your cash flow goals.
Alec: So how do you now integrate that into teaching your kids?
Jamie: Uh, well, you have a, we have a lot of books about credit cards. So Dave Ramsey has a good series on kid books and they talk about debt in the sense of not a credit card but owing people money.
And so we kind of use [00:46:00] those as a learning tool, but we. Generally, I feel like we haven't gotten too far into that bridge where they're not really borrowing money from each other or in debt in any way. But I feel like we have to talk about credit cards and how they are really like a loan that if you don't pay it off every month, you're gonna pay more for the item than it actually costs.
So I think if you explain it in that way, like, okay, would you pay $70 for this thing that costs $50? And they're like, of course not. That's silly. But then like, that's exactly what can happen if you, you know, you charge this and you, and you let the interest pile up.
Alec: It is a spiral to be avoided. Mm-hmm.
Jamie, what changes have you noticed in families that you work with that they teach their kids? I
Jamie: feel like a, a lot, a common theme that I see is parents who, when they were growing up, like they, their parents didn't have a lot, so they, you know, they were like, well, I didn't even. Ask for a lot of things or we didn't talk about money or whatever.
[00:47:00] And so now they're at the point where they are more financially secure than their parents were at the same time. And they just don't wanna raise spoiled kids. You know? They're like, mm-hmm. How do I make sure they're not spoiled when I know I can afford to support them and I know I can afford to buy a, a nicer car and pay for their phone and whatever.
And so it's more the conversations of. It's not a matter of if you can afford it, it's like what are we trying to teach them and how do we use, you know, the bills that we have and then the income that they have or the money that we're paying them to solidify those lessons.
Alec: What's the best money teaching idea you've heard from, whether it's from them or you know, these families or that you've discovered in your own house or that you've heard from some other source lately?
Jamie: Oh, I mean, I really think the best tool is just letting them fail like we talked about already. Just letting them kind of feel the pain of, okay, I spent this money on this and now I don't. Use that toy anymore. I don't like that thing. [00:48:00] And I, and I could have done differently. So I think the power's really in the conversation after those purchases and having them kind of reflect and saying it out loud, like, I shouldn't have done that and next time I'm gonna think harder before I spend my money or make a better plan.
For next time.
Alec: Yeah. Just letting them run through it. Yeah. I'm with you.
Julie: Like when you're in the souvenir shop and you go, don't you wish you hadn't blown that $50 yesterday?
Alec: Mm-hmm. Basically, it's a glorified way of me getting to say it. I told you so.
Julie: Told you so.
Jamie: Yeah, but you're not saying it. You're making them say it.
Yeah. Oh, you were right.
Alec: Oh, that's true. I'm gonna start carrying a mirror and I'm just gonna put it in front of their face and say, here you go. And then they get to say to the mirror, I told you so.
Jamie: Yeah. I like it.
Alec: Jamie, my final question is, so what words of wisdom would you give a parent who has not yet taken the plunge to teach their kids about money?
I.
I would say, uh, you can, you can start small. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Um, but just know that [00:49:00] when you're getting money in kids' hands and getting them some practice with using money that you're solidifying small lessons along the way and things will be so much easier when they get older.
Amen.
I like it. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. I was looking forward to it and it totally delivered.
Jamie: Okay, great. Yeah, it's great to meet you guys and thanks so much for having
Julie: me. Yes. I can't wait to look at your book too. I'm gonna check it out. It sounds amazing. Oh,
Jamie: I'll send you some.
Julie: What's it called again?
Jamie: Uh, so the grownup ones money Boss mom. Money boss mom. And then the kids ones are Milton, the money savvy puppy.
Julie: Mm. Yeah. I would love to give that to my nephew. He's in the program and he is understanding the, the monthly allowance, and he's all about saving money for dogs. So that would be a perfect book for him.
Alec: Well, there you go. He's gonna love Melanie. There you go. Yeah. All right. So everybody, I just wanna remind you before we sign off that the best place [00:50:00] to check out all of the different resources that we have is CentsofResponsibility.com. That's of course with a C, C E N T S. Slash resources, so CentsofResponsibility.com/resources.
That's where you'll find the courses, the blog, podcast, newsletter, all of that good stuff. And of course, hit the subscribe button. And then Julie. Julie, what do I always say?
Julie: Teach responsibly.
Alec: Oh my goodness. No. Julie, you've been gone for too long.
Julie: Try it again. Try it again.
Alec: Try it again. Okay. Julie, what do I always say?
Julie: Teach cents-sibly, Alec.
Alec: That's right. Teach sensibly everyone though, right? Till next time.
